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Flashpackers and Flashpacking

Hostel Trends and News

Josh started this discussion 16 years 9 months ago

Below is an excerpt from a news article about "flashpackers" and "flashpacking".

The end of the article has a "10 key signs of a flashpacker" list, including "You don't spend all day emailing friends to tell how you hitch-hiked to Paris and saved $12. You're shopping on the Champs Elysees" and "You have a keen eye for media hype, recognise this is all a joke and would cut off your own arm and eat it rather than actually call yourself a flashpacker".

Any thoughts of flashpackers/flashpacking?

Here is the article excerpt:
(I added the bold.)

Flashpacker is a fairly new term. . .used to describe independent travellers who journey in style. It applies to adventurous men and women, usually in their 30s, who have established careers and money to burn. . .
[...]
There is no set amount that flashpackers will budget on accommodation a night. "In Thailand, we paid £5 [$11.80] per night for beautiful seafront cabins, then stopped off in Singapore and stayed at the Fullerton Hotel, one of the most expensive. But the key is choice."

In three months, the couple spent £20,000.
[...]
In Australia, the word has been seized by accommodation chain Nomads World Hotels, which rebranded its backpackers as flashpackers about six months ago.

"We have six properties in Australia and New Zealand and Fiji and our properties were getting better and better," Penny Brand, the company's sales and marketing manager, says. "And backpackers . . . the name just didn't cut it. We have en suite doubles as well as the dorm rooms. Some of our properties have cinema lounges, resort-type pools, air-conditioning."

Coming up with the concept was simple (although Nomads' definition differs from that at Flashpackerdiaries.com). "To us, it was like, it's a flash backpackers, so it's flashpackers!" Brand says. "We have one property that doesn't fit that market - it's called our partypackers."

A double room at a flashpackers costs $70-$95 a night. "We have king, en suite rooms with televisions that go for $95 a night in Melbourne," Brand says. "That price is on par with a lower-end hotel, but you've got a bar with a cafe, wireless internet through the whole reception-bar area, a kitchen, a cinema lounge - facilities a traditional hotel doesn't have."

Nomads aims to offer the social interaction of a backpackers, but with the comforts of a hotel, Brand says.
[...]
Rob Hart, general manager of Flight Centre's Student Flights in Brisbane, has noticed the change in the market. "We're a student flights brand, so we focus on backpackers and students, but the majority of our customers are actually professionals," he says. "There's a greater trend to take career breaks - a lot of corporations are giving people time to actually do that.

"Probably 75 per cent of of the backpackers who come to Australia come from Europe, and a lot of those backpackers are professionals," he says.

"So they can afford to flashpack rather than do it on the ultimate cheap, as, say, an 18-year-old or a gap-year student would do."
[...]
Brand says another trend is that traditional backpackers are getting older.

"Instead of it being an 18 to 25 market, it's a 25 to 40 sort of thing - [including those] taking a gap year off life, or those just married who decide to take a year off before having the kids."

Hart has noticed a similar shift: "We definitely see lots of older people, particularly 30 to 40, who are still doing flashpacking around the world. One trend is that they've been backpackers before, but they are over the sharing of dorms, but they still go to backpackers."

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santa klaus

16 years

maybe its because im young, but i tend not to stress about things beyond my control - too much on my own plate i guess. and i know im not alone in that regard.

This is not beyond your control. You can vote and you can raise your voice. You can do a lot by raising your voice because only very few people do. A small minority can actually change a lot, if it is a loud minority.

to be fair mate, if you could survive and save on 2 days work a week, you were spoiled. as much as id like to be in that situation, i wouldnt really consider it fair if i was.

My whole generation is spoiled, I guess. That sort of pay was normal in Germany in the 80ies and early 90ies.
I used to work on the assemly line of a a/c and ventilation systems manufacturer in Bavaria every summer. I picked up nearly EUR 2000 per month - that´s almost more than I make now, but consider how cheap everything was back then.

Things have changed and continue to change. They call it "globalization" but I don´t buy that. Germany was very globalized back then, too. We always lived on a strong export industry.

It´s little wonder there´s a leftist party now in Germany picking up massive amounts of votes. People see how some are stuffing their pockets and leaving the rest with the crumbs falling off their tables.

for one reason or another, hostels are becoming big business and whilst i would never become complacent - the industry doesnt look like disappearing any time soon. stay ahead of your competitors and let it be.

You are right, but it almost seems paradox to me.

One reason why youth travel grows is because you´re supposed to travel these days. You know, people want to list travel experience and foreign work experience in their CVs. Being fluent in English is a "must" in Europe. Not speaking good English is considered equal to having no right arm. People are really obsessed with their CVs now. There were a few of those 20 years ago, too - they were laughed at by the majority. Now look at how they present themselves on career networking sites like xing.com. I was really shocked when I looked for a few random persons I know on that site - they were ALL there. And good fun for me reading their shiny CVs when knowing their real lives! :D

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gordo

16 years

This is not beyond your control. You can vote and you can raise your voice. You can do a lot by raising your voice because only very few people do. A small minority can actually change a lot, if it is a loud minority.

some things we can influence, yes. US economic policy, sadly, is not one of them. id be up in arms if it was australian policies - or even british. but at the end of the day, ive got my own life to live. right now, my biggest problem is paying off my credit card :eek: ironically inflation may not be that bad for me these days ;)

My whole generation is spoiled, I guess. That sort of pay was normal in Germany in the 80ies and early 90ies.
I used to work on the assemly line of a a/c and ventilation systems manufacturer in Bavaria every summer. I picked up nearly EUR 2000 per month - that´s almost more than I make now, but consider how cheap everything was back then.

Things have changed and continue to change. They call it "globalization" but I don´t buy that. Germany was very globalized back then, too. We always lived on a strong export industry.

It´s little wonder there´s a leftist party now in Germany picking up massive amounts of votes. People see how some are stuffing their pockets and leaving the rest with the crumbs falling off their tables.

yeah, sucks doesnt it. i remember being at school and university and wanting to change the world. now i just want to see it.

You are right, but it almost seems paradox to me.

i suppose it is - but i do think some backpackers travel for different reasons. its not so much a luxury as it is a right of passage or a life-style. maybe thats just the sort of folks i hang around and connect with, maybe its just me. but i think the appeal of travel is growing - in europe, the EU/€ is making it considerably easier, people are keener and keener to work overseas - quite possibly just to add an extra layer to their CV. i certainly think our access to the outside world has played a massive part. foreign countries arent as 'foreign' as they used to - the media and internet can be thanked for that. researching where you want to go (and stay) is easy - and mobile. english is the new lingua franca, everyone's 2nd language. travel may be relatively more expensive, but id say its certainly a lot easier than it used to be. i remember travelling around europe with my parents as a kid (only the early 90s) - different currencies, visas, border control, language barriers, calling hotels ahead... now its a walk in the park.

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santa klaus

16 years

some things we can influence, yes. US economic policy, sadly, is not one of them.

yeah, sucks doesnt it. i remember being at school and university and wanting to change the world. now i just want to see it.

Hehe, I got a little bit carried away. :D

Still, I think people must realize they are screwed. This is not something which was inevitable due to globalization. They are screwed deliberately.

Americans have never really been screwed before, so they don´t know what to do about it - but at least I hope there are still enough countries en Europe where the people haven´t been dumbed down that much. Like - tire pressure. Yeah, right. That´ll save all your problems, lemmings! :D

now its a walk in the park

That is certainly true. The internet has turned travelling upside down. It makes people less afraid of the unknown, because nothing is unknown any more. Although it took some fun out of it, too. I remember when I first went to South America in 1994. I got off the plane in Buenos Aires, without a plan and totally clueless. Today, you book everything ahead online and your GPS cellphone shows you the way to every place you decided to visit a few months before.

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aboriginalhostel

16 years

I´m not the Hostel-Putin? That is disappointing!
Putin is a jerk, but he is an efficient jerk. I am German, I like efficiency. He lived in Germany in the eighties, we have obviously tought him a thing or two! :D

Of course he lived there as he was a KGB agent... maybe he infiltrated to German culture and implented some Russian method instead... :rolleyes:

Also they always had problems with sizes. It was a great backgrounds for jokes like that:

"USSR was the first country who invented micro computer, but they couldn't introduce it because it didn't fit through the factory gates..."

"You can tell that KGB has placed a bug in your room if you find an extra wardrobe among your furnitures..."

Your idea is good, but I am old and disillusioned. We have been member of "Europe´s Famous Hostels" ... I have tried to get our German hostels into the "German Backpacker Network" because I genuinely think that club is a very good idea with some great potential. They have voted not to let us in, so that´s that.

The EHC is basicly an "elite" club for common marketing purposes. It works effectively for some of their hostels (if not all of them) including being mostly independent from other booking engines...

Having a large hostel (and you have four of them) is hard to brand, because you need all sorts of people to fill the place up. At least you made your name known, which is a good result of branding. I don't know the particular reasons why the German Backpacker Network didn't let you in, but it could be either the issue for the size or the difficulties to identify with the BN branding purposes.

I think that having ten hostel owners around a table is the best way to get nothing done. Unfortunately.

That's right, regarding most hostel managers are primarily busy to run their hostels and this leaves some idealists have the efforts to push other things on. Also this is a reason why it doesn't work to have a round table (also just take a look at the UN for example) but it is hard to find and finance independent staff which have the hostel business experience as well. You have to lose on either sides of efficiency; it is a hard decision as you have to choose which one of your fingers you have to bite.

You are absolutely right that a lot of very different venues call themselves "hostel" now. At the same time, the composition of our guests diversifies, too.

Indeed, but some of these venues are either amateur or tricky, using the advantages of the anonimity of the Internet. Remember the joke about the dog and internet chat? "You can chat on the net as they don't know you are a dog."
It makes things less relevant and reliable. You can have your word on the net to tell about your experience but it does not substitute virtual things from the real world...

Our problem is that we still live mainly of guests from USA, Australia, Canada, NZ, UK. The term "hostel" is still too little-known in continental Europe. Only 15% of our guests are European. That´s highly unhealthy. We have to do something that Europeans learn that independent hostels *exist* (in contrast to YHI hostels, which are rightly considered uncool here) and that it´s not only cheap to stay in them, but good fun, too.

IMHO, earlier or after, young Europeans will know about hostels, especially due the budget flights, so HW is on a good way to that. It is their interest to do so, but we need more promotion than theirs in order to keep up a diversed market. I like HW's aspect on that, innovating things and entering new markets, but I hate that feeling to depend only one source. Although it is not their fault that the others are unable to challenge them.

That is of course very hard to achieve if "hostel" stands for so many different things. Someone who stays once in a characterless, bad hostel may indeed think all are like that.

I hate the term "flashpacker" for the stupid hype around it, but if we really manage to attract more guests from Europe, they will be exactly that: arriving in town on Thursday or Friday with a cheapo flight and leaving Sunday. Wheelies instead of backpacks. Couples will ask for a double ensuite, have no illusions about that. Even small groups of 3-6 persons won´t be very happy about other guests in their room (but may accept the shower outside their room).
These people will appreciate the social atmosphere very much but they hardly contribute to it because they tend to stick together. They expect a better standard than your classic backpacker, including A+ location.

The problem I see is rather about flashpackers are a fragile new market at this moment with an unstable positioning, although there are surprises about how the previosly thought stabile market of major backpackers can easily vanish within couple of years, forcing hostels to change markets and facilities as well. If the demands will change as frequent as it entered to the market, it could be KO for some traditional hostels and after waking up in the box ring we all can easily find ourselves on the budget hotels' market. I don't wanna create a new hype about it (we have enough already) but as planning future strategies, it is good to calculate this factor.

Like as you said, most of the hostels are crap in quality... depending on what is the hostel positioning for. Some hostels were aiming the low budget, even with the purpose of just to live from a business without plans about taking over the world. Some of them didn't plan to save enough to do major renovations, believing that particular backpacker market will stay forever.

These hostels are definitely suffering the disadvantages of their wrong planning or management. Although I'm saying that we have a responsability to save them, help them to survive the new wave, as we need more quality hostels around, even instead of the new boom of "hostels". We all have a common interest of people staying in hostels, instead of "hostels" or hotels and the more guests stays in hostels, the more guests we all will have.

Flashpackers as a fragile market still depend on the budget flight companies, oil prices, airport policies (taxes and security issues), hostel booking engines vs. hotel booking engines, budget hotel chains (like Easyhotels) and if we can sell our image as a branding. All very important market factors which none of us can change individually but it would be even a tough job together.

IMHO, backpackers are more important than flashpackers. It is a common belief that backpackers are poor, although I'd rather say budget always depends on destinations. The more you want to travel, the more you want to save, but the majority are people who (used to) backpack for few months only. They travel for months continously, which means cca. 30 nights in a months instead of flashpackers 4 weekends as 8-10 nights.

Theoretically we could say that, based on the same budget a flashpacker spends 3 times more than a backpacker. But, the same flashpacker spends even more on tours, eating out (drinking habits about the same ;) ) also shopping clothes, etc. So what they save on tickets and accomodation, they spend it on other stuff. (Good if you are planning to make more business of your guests.)

Of course, flashpacking is a more popular trend nowadays, so more people coming then backpackers.

I will happily join your movement but I´m somewhat sceptic.

Don't think anything serious at the moment, as unfortunately even I'm busy with running my hostel just like anyone else.

Also we have a say "two swallows won't make a summer." Even if you have four birds runnin', there are more hostels needed to make such association and Gomio seems to already have one, even if it has it's own difficulties.

Will see if there would be a need for such thing from other hostels as well, so if any other hostels interested, just post it here, let's share your ideas!

And dear colleagues, if you rather decide to do nothing about it, I don't want to point it out later: I told you! :rolleyes:

Oh yes, let´s not forget Olga´s staff rating. I want 99%, too. Tell me how the fu*k she does that! :)

Well, it is a bit hard to do the same in a large hostel, but she really knows her guests. Remembering your guests and personalizing a conversation, that's one of the keys. Also she goes out with her guests as well, partying out in town together. So she proves that she is their host during their stay and the hostel is like a friend's house where you can crash on anytime you come to Budapest. So the place is intimate and very friendly.
Also she owns the place, which does matter a lot. We had 95% when we owners were working here, it is easily achievable when you live with your guests. Since I had to compromise between things but I ain't no 20 anymore. I have other goals in my life as well, but IMHO, rating is important but not everything. Having a 85% hostel with a good marketing is more important than having a 99% and awaiting for online bookings. ;)

Also there is a common mistake of recent trends: HW is efficient but not a miracle. Internet bookings only won't make you a successful business. IMHO.

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santa klaus

16 years

The EHC is basicly an "elite" club for common marketing purposes. It works effectively for some of their hostels (if not all of them) including being mostly independent from other booking engines...

Why do you think so? I am genuinely interested, because I don´t think there is any effect at all, or let´s say very little effect.

Having a large hostel (and you have four of them) is hard to brand, because you need all sorts of people to fill the place up. At least you made your name known, which is a good result of branding.

Well, we had half a million guests so far in all the four hostels combined. So - MANY people know about us and apparently, they are spreading the word. The branding also works because all our hostels are very similar - If you have stayed in one you know pretty well what you can expect from the others.
I think the "all sorts of people" aspect is not that important. As long as the mixture is somewhat balanced, everyone just blends in, even a Contiki group with 50 obnoxious college kids.

I don't know the particular reasons why the German Backpacker Network didn't let you in, but it could be either the issue for the size or the difficulties to identify with the BN branding purposes.

Neither do I. They never bothered to tell me.

That's right, regarding most hostel managers are primarily busy to run their hostels and this leaves some idealists have the efforts to push other things on. Also this is a reason why it doesn't work to have a round table (also just take a look at the UN for example) but it is hard to find and finance independent staff which have the hostel business experience as well. You have to lose on either sides of efficiency; it is a hard decision as you have to choose which one of your fingers you have to bite.

My experience at "Europe´s Famous Hostels" was that money is generally no problem - opinions are too different and characters sometimes to difficult.

Some wanted most of all to learn from other´s experiences, some wanted to enforce minimum standards, some wanted marketing and nothing else.

Indeed, but some of these venues are either amateur or tricky, using the advantages of the anonimity of the Internet. Remember the joke about the dog and internet chat? "You can chat on the net as they don't know you are a dog."
It makes things less relevant and reliable. You can have your word on the net to tell about your experience but it does not substitute virtual things from the real world...

Exactly, but if you start your club of hostels (as opposed to "hostels" and hotels) and go public with it, how do you keep people from thinking this is just another marketing scam like all the rest?

IMHO, earlier or after, young Europeans will know about hostels, especially due the budget flights, so HW is on a good way to that. It is their interest to do so, but we need more promotion than theirs in order to keep up a diversed market. I like HW's aspect on that, innovating things and entering new markets, but I hate that feeling to depend only one source. Although it is not their fault that the others are unable to challenge them.

The problem I see is rather about flashpackers are a fragile new market at this moment with an unstable positioning, although there are surprises about how the previosly thought stabile market of major backpackers can easily vanish within couple of years, forcing hostels to change markets and facilities as well. If the demands will change as frequent as it entered to the market, it could be KO for some traditional hostels and after waking up in the box ring we all can easily find ourselves on the budget hotels' market. I don't wanna create a new hype about it (we have enough already) but as planning future strategies, it is good to calculate this factor.

I agree "flashpackers" is most of all a stupid hype but there is some substance in the matter, too. European backpackers vanished in the early Nineties along with the cheap Interrail ticket. They went to Latin America and Asia instead. Now, we get the Europeans back, but not as classical backpackers - they are a bit older now and travel to just one city at a time with a cheapo airline.

Let´s talk about Germans because I know them best, being one of them. When we go backpacking to India or Ecuador we don´t mind to stay in ratholes because we think it´s part of the experience and besides, what do you expect of a room for 5 dollars a night?

When we travel within Europe on a one-destination-trip or a little two-week-tour for example around Spain we don´t pay 5 dollars for a room, but at least 50 Euros for a double. For that sort of money, we simply don´t want to see mold in the bathroom, hair in the sink, squeaky steel pipe beds with too-old matresses or even be booked out to another place because the hostel we booked was overbooked. We expect professional service for 50 Euros, for chrissake.

So many hostels, and I speak of the hostels without the quotation marks simply can´t live up to that. Period.

Unless we don´t offer those 28-year-old German couples what they expext for that sort of price they will decide to spend 70 Euros for a proper hotel room instead of 50 for a hostel. The price gap between us and them is not so big any more.

The mistake most hostel owners make is they think people just look for a place to crash, like they did that themselves in India or Ecuador. They offer very little in the way of *standard* and charge what everybody else does - which is quite a lot, even in Hungary and Poland now.

So! What I am saying is that Europeans may find out about hostels, but we have to be well aware they expect more from us than the clientele we´re used to.

Well, it is a bit hard to do the same in a large hostel, but she really knows her guests. Remembering your guests and personalizing a conversation, that's one of the keys. Also she goes out with her guests as well, partying out in town together. So she proves that she is their host during their stay and the hostel is like a friend's house where you can crash on anytime you come to Budapest. So the place is intimate and very friendly.
Also she owns the place, which does matter a lot. We had 95% when we owners were working here, it is easily achievable when you live with your guests. Since I had to compromise between things but I ain't no 20 anymore.

Damn, I thought you´d reveal the secret miraculous formula to me! ;)

That is impossible to do in a large hostel. I did exactly that when we opened - our first winter was very quiet and we often had no more than 20 or 30 guests. I did not yet have a family, was glad for every excuse not to do something for university and spent much of my free time with the guests in the hostel and often went out with them, too. So I know how well that works - but it is
A) not something you can expect from someone who doesn´t own the place but just works there for a rather small salary
B) not possible anyway when you have 300 guests instead of 30.

Also there is a common mistake of recent trends: HW is efficient but not a miracle. Internet bookings only won't make you a successful business. IMHO.

Well, HW can do amazing things. I saw that. Palmers Lodge (London) opened in spring 2006. A completely new name, no marketing effort whatsoever, but competetive rates and the best ratings in London. They were basically full from day one - ONLY with HW bookings. They did not even bother to sign up with other booking sites.

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aboriginalhostel

16 years

Well, we had half a million guests so far in all the four hostels combined. So - MANY people know about us and apparently, they are spreading the word. The branding also works because all our hostels are very similar - If you have stayed in one you know pretty well what you can expect from the others.
I think the "all sorts of people" aspect is not that important. As long as the mixture is somewhat balanced, everyone just blends in, even a Contiki group with 50 obnoxious college kids.

Right, your name branding works well... but I meant the market branding, which might be difficult, IMHO. As you have to fill up your beds, it can be hard to refuse stag parties, contiki groups, or oldies which may bring down the atmosphere. Groups usually stick together, won't talk to anyone in the hostel and they rather look for cheap accomodation instead of meeting people, as hostels still have advantage on budget hotels.

Exactly, but if you start your club of hostels (as opposed to "hostels" and hotels) and go public with it, how do you keep people from thinking this is just another marketing scam like all the rest?

Sorry if it was misunderstandable but I'm not looking for EHC#2 or any other elite club. I've visited several hostels in Europe (about 300?, sorry, didn't count it :D) and there are a lot of places which would not meet the standards of a backpackers hostel as we see. These hostels can exist by simply registered on booking engines and they are never reviewed by the booking engines before accepting their registration. Booking engines wouldn't mind getting bookings through them because they can sell more beds.

There are some magic rumours about reviews, but in general not every people bother themselves to comment their stay, especially if they travel only once or twice instead of having a long journey. You can check very easy how many returning costumers does hostels have, just check your own reviews... ;) And how would you tell your costumers about what is a hostel like if they haven't seen one before?

I've just been to Krakow and lot of hostels complaining about how prices gone up and tourists just disappearing there. Also read the recent news about Ryanair will leave Krakow due the high petrol prices and the airport taxes it's not worthy to run their flights... So what's gonna happen in Europe if let's say the oil prices fly high again?

I agree "flashpackers" is most of all a stupid hype but there is some substance in the matter, too. European backpackers vanished in the early Nineties along with the cheap Interrail ticket. They went to Latin America and Asia instead. Now, we get the Europeans back, but not as classical backpackers - they are a bit older now and travel to just one city at a time with a cheapo airline.

I'd rather say this happened a bit later, when Easyjet and Ryanair opened up their wings and followed by the others. Before that everyone was backpacking who stayed in European hostels. The more guests you can have, the higher price you can ask for... and at the end it's not worth for those low-budgeted ones to stay in our hostels anymore.

When we travel within Europe on a one-destination-trip or a little two-week-tour for example around Spain we don´t pay 5 dollars for a room, but at least 50 Euros for a double. For that sort of money, we simply don´t want to see mold in the bathroom, hair in the sink, squeaky steel pipe beds with too-old matresses or even be booked out to another place because the hostel we booked was overbooked. We expect professional service for 50 Euros, for chrissake.

Well, when I was travelling I didn't want to stay in crapholes. I wanted to stay in legendary places and still want to visit them. These places were advertised by people who stayed there before instead of checking reviews of people who never stayed in hostels before.

Even now I accept if that hostel isn't a spotless shiny frill hotel type thing but somewhere I can talk to people, meet the locals and discover things which I wouldn't be able if I'd participate a prepaid bus ride, socializing, meeting people, that's what hostels are for, instead of just getting drunk together, we can get drunk by knowing each other, right? :rolleyes:

Unless we don´t offer those 28-year-old German couples what they expect for that sort of price they will decide to spend 70 Euros for a proper hotel room instead of 50 for a hostel. The price gap between us and them is not so big any more.

IMHO, if it's all about the money, then hotels have a better position. They offer privacy, security, a lot of packed services and overall a standard of stars between 1 to 5. Just take a look of Easyhotels... Just wondering how come there are no other chains like that?

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santa klaus

16 years

Right, your name branding works well... but I meant the market branding, which might be difficult, IMHO. As you have to fill up your beds, it can be hard to refuse stag parties, contiki groups, or oldies which may bring down the atmosphere. Groups usually stick together, won't talk to anyone in the hostel and they rather look for cheap accomodation instead of meeting people, as hostels still have advantage on budget hotels.

It´s not as difficult as you think. First of all, we have no stag parties here. These people don´t even ask for reservations here. Booze is not that cheap in Germany and Austria - these people rather go to Prague, Riga, ... or stay at home in the UK to waste themselves.
Then, I don´t doubt that the sort of people staying in a hostel has a big influence on the atmosphere there. But then, if you have 300 guests the law of large numbers applies. The mix will always be more balanced out than in a small hostel.
Another word about brand recognition: I guess the reason the brand "Wombats" works so well is that it we are unique in the following way: there are a lot of large hostels in Europe you may call "party hostel". We are one of those, but unlike in most other party hostels our rooms are quite nice as well in terms of standard and cleanliness. We have many guests who totally ignore the party scene here. You can stay in a Wombats just to have a good night´s sleep in a decent room. In that sense, we offer a pretty rare combination and appeal to very different sorts of guests. And it doesn´t bring down the atmosphere at all. If you are a party animal, there will still be 150 of the same sort staying here.

Sorry if it was misunderstandable but I'm not looking for EHC#2 or any other elite club.

Then describe what exactly you have in mind!

I've just been to Krakow and lot of hostels complaining about how prices gone up and tourists just disappearing there. Also read the recent news about Ryanair will leave Krakow due the high petrol prices and the airport taxes it's not worthy to run their flights... So what's gonna happen in Europe if let's say the oil prices fly high again?

I have just googled a bit. Energy costs are on average 35% of the total costs of airlines. Some budget airlines are even said to spend 50% of their money on fuel. So: that is indeed an important factor. I guess the days of cheap fuel are gone. We will have to live with the fact that air travel is going to be more expensive than it used to be.

But who knows. Maybe the railway companies wake up and bring back cheap interrail? Or we may have a much better (and cheap) bus network in Europe someday?

I'd rather say this happened a bit later, when Easyjet and Ryanair opened up their wings and followed by the others. Before that everyone was backpacking who stayed in European hostels. The more guests you can have, the higher price you can ask for... and at the end it's not worth for those low-budgeted ones to stay in our hostels anymore.

I can´t see that happening with all the new hostels opening up everywhere. E.g. in Berlin, hostel prices are actually going down.

Even now I accept if that hostel isn't a spotless shiny frill hotel type thing but somewhere I can talk to people, meet the locals and discover things which I wouldn't be able if I'd participate a prepaid bus ride, socializing, meeting people, that's what hostels are for, instead of just getting drunk together, we can get drunk by knowing each other, right? :rolleyes:

IMHO, if it's all about the money, then hotels have a better position. They offer privacy, security, a lot of packed services and overall a standard of stars between 1 to 5. Just take a look of Easyhotels... Just wondering how come there are no other chains like that?

I think it is about both. You´ll have success if you can offer a good atmosphere AND standard. If we follow that road, we will be in a much better position than budget hotels. Providing good atmosphere is harder than cleaning a room. We will be quicker to learn what they are good at than them trying to learn how to create a social scene!

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aboriginalhostel

16 years

Then describe what exactly you have in mind!

I will, soon... just working on it a lil bit! ;)

I have just googled a bit. Energy costs are on average 35% of the total costs of airlines. Some budget airlines are even said to spend 50% of their money on fuel. So: that is indeed an important factor. I guess the days of cheap fuel are gone. We will have to live with the fact that air travel is going to be more expensive than it used to be.

But who knows. Maybe the railway companies wake up and bring back cheap interrail? Or we may have a much better (and cheap) bus network in Europe someday?

Okay, but what happens to hostels until that happens?

This is what I was talking before about fragile and instable market... Building up a hostel industry based on budget flights and online bookings. Even if the budget market was smaller before, at least you could easily rely your business on several legs on a long term...

How many guests do you have from budget flights? What will you do without them?

I can´t see that happening with all the new hostels opening up everywhere. E.g. in Berlin, hostel prices are actually going down.

That's the part of the story... price wars are always happening when there are not enough guests in a city. Or would you say the same about Munich during Octoberfest? :cool:

I think it is about both. You´ll have success if you can offer a good atmosphere AND standard. If we follow that road, we will be in a much better position than budget hotels. Providing good atmosphere is harder than cleaning a room. We will be quicker to learn what they are good at than them trying to learn how to create a social scene!

It always depends on the guests as well. If you have a budget minded traveler, they are looking for different standards than a money burning "flashpacker". Backpackers don't like to stay in crapholes, they are just budget minded. Crapholes are never recommended.

Backpackers rather stay in a place which has kitchen instead of eating out in restaurants every day and rather exploring the city by themselves than booking a fancy tour.

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santa klaus

16 years

Okay, but what happens to hostels until that happens?

Let´s see what the effect on hostels actually is. It could mean lots of things. When flights are expensive, Europeans may not go overseas so often any more => good for us. Or those from overseas who still come to Europe may want to save money now and stay in hostels instead of hotels. Who knows.
Transport costs are a very important factor, but we don´t have a merely one-dimensional relation between them and travel patterns.

This is what I was talking before about fragile and instable market... Building up a hostel industry based on budget flights and online bookings. Even if the budget market was smaller before, at least you could easily rely your business on several legs on a long term...

How many guests do you have from budget flights? What will you do without them?

The vast majority of our guests still arrive with a train. We have surveyed our guests in May this year. The share of flight arrivals is highest in Berlin (little wonder with so many Airberlin and Easyjet connections there) but even there still more come by train.

That's the part of the story... price wars are always happening when there are not enough guests in a city. Or would you say the same about Munich during Octoberfest? :cool:

Well... those who cannot otherwise attract guests (i.e. with a good reputation) make price wars. OK, that sounds a bit arrogant and of course we start to worry when other hosels charge less than half than what we do. What I want to say is that the budget-minded travellers won´t be left without cheap beds. You can find beds for less than EUR 10 in Berlin all-year round - even on weekends in July. Enough people still pay EUR 19 for our beds.

It always depends on the guests as well. If you have a budget minded traveler, they are looking for different standards than a money burning "flashpacker".

They appreciate a good standard just like everybody else. We should be able to deliver that for what we charge. Vienna´s hotels make on average EUR 85 per room per night. That´s less than our six-bed rooms! Why shouldn´t we be able to offer a good standard for that, if hotels can do it, too?

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aboriginalhostel

16 years

Let´s see what the effect on hostels actually is. It could mean lots of things. When flights are expensive, Europeans may not go overseas so often any more => good for us. Or those from overseas who still come to Europe may want to save money now and stay in hostels instead of hotels. Who knows.

Hostel prices went up when budget flights supported us plenty of guests.
The more guests you have, the more you can charge.

And you are talking about those Europeans who barely knows what a hostel is... right?

Transport costs are a very important factor, but we don´t have a merely one-dimensional relation between them and travel patterns.

No, we don't. But our guests may have, right? I mean budget is a factor which can affect travel patterns...IMHO. Or what else you have in mind?

The vast majority of our guests still arrive with a train. We have surveyed our guests in May this year. The share of flight arrivals is highest in Berlin (little wonder with so many Airberlin and Easyjet connections there) but even there still more come by train.

According to my experience, high season is between May and September, thats when the students start traveling still by Interrail and Eurail... So how'bout a survey anywhere between September and May, when the flight weekenders are more popular? Also just another tip: We have a survey as part of the check in form, so people fill in how they know about us, how and where from they arrived, where they plan to go, etc. So even you can have a more detailed picture of your guests! ;)

Well... those who cannot otherwise attract guests (i.e. with a good reputation) make price wars. OK, that sounds a bit arrogant and of course we start to worry when other hosels charge less than half than what we do. What I want to say is that the budget-minded travellers won´t be left without cheap beds. You can find beds for less than EUR 10 in Berlin all-year round - even on weekends in July. Enough people still pay EUR 19 for our beds.

Tell me about it! In Budapest the cheapest bed right now is around 7EUR which goes down to 3EUR during winter... We have a 15EUR starter now and still fully booked and able to sell beds even for 10/12EUR during winter. So it is the marketing and the quality service which plays a major role and we keep our prices until the very last minute, when we've done all efforts to get more guests.

They appreciate a good standard just like everybody else. We should be able to deliver that for what we charge.

That's right, but on competing markets you have to constantly develop more and more services in order to be better than your competition...

The bigger the competition is, the better you should be... and if there ain't no more guests but expanding competition, the racing bubble can just burst one day.

Vienna´s hotels make on average EUR 85 per room per night. That´s less than our six-bed rooms! Why shouldn´t we be able to offer a good standard for that, if hotels can do it, too?

Sure. How about having a restaurant, a swimming pool, a gym and a sauna? Is this what hostels going to be in the 21st century?

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