Today's exchange rates from xe.com:
1 euro = $1.40 USD
1 pound = $1.44 USD
1 pound = 1.04 euros
Almost the same...
Do you think the UK will ever switch to the euro? Someone from Denmark told me that Denmark will probably switch to the euro.
BBC has a whole section on it here.
15 years
Well, this is why this treaty was made for (and this is why it's been mined by allegedly the US), as the Lisbon treaty would have centralized the EU somehow and could give higher powers to Brussels...
Well, yes. But they did it completely the wrong way. Download it (pdf). 392 pages. I guarantee you can´t read any five of them without falling asleep.
Compare that with the constitution of the USA (pdf) - 19 pages - including all amendments made since 1787.
15 years
true but the french did away with the franc... and theyre not short on patriotism.
I'm often wrong, so correct me if I am, but I don't think the French voted in a referendum to abolish the Euro? I thought in most countries this decision was taken at a political level rather than a plebiscite? Except in Sweden and Denmark who rejected it. I think most citizens seem to want the financial benefits of associating with Germany France, the UK and other larger countries, but are petrified of losing their "identity"
Do you think we will actually get a chance to VOTE on it?
Our government doesn't consult the people on little things like whether we change currencies, or whether we go to war.:mad:
Whilst I'm totally against war as any kind of enterprise, I don't think in our system of govt we there has to be a referendum on these sort of issues. We elect the govt to make decisions, and hopefully we reject them at the polls if we're not happy. The interesting thing about Iraq was that there was arguably a majority against it, but both major parties were in favour. So someone against it really had not viable option.
15 years
The EU is a great thing, it just has one big design fault: each member state has to approve every major law individually. That is like a bus without a destination sign on the windscreen but with a brake pedal for every passenger: it´ll never go anywhere.
The politicians always maneuvered themselves around the crucial question: do we want the United States of Europe or only a common market? There should be a referendum about exactly that question in every single member country - ASAP. Those countries voting for USE will get exactly that - a single currency, a meaningful European parliament which elects its own government and a constitution. All the rest will get a tariff union with the USE, but no further subsidies and absolutely no influence over the USE´s internal affairs. If they want to join later, they´re welcome. If they think printing their silly queen´s face on their own banknotes is their patriotic duty they aren´t politically mature. Innit?
But how many countries would vote for a genuine USE? Obviously no-one knows, but most initiatives milder than this have been rejected in various countries. I think that's what even the most pro Union politicians are afraid of, that such a referendum would be widely rejected, thus putting back the cause of the EU decades. The traditional slow burn approach of gradually introducing more and more unification has worked so far. To throw it away in search of a USE on a matter of principle would be foolish I think.
As to whether the UK voters are politically mature, I'm not sure. But it's always easy for a politician to appeal to petty prejudices in any country. Even if they're a closet gay speeding drunk driver.
15 years
But how many countries would vote for a genuine USE? Obviously no-one knows,
and I don´t know either, but that EU is at a point now where this question can´t be ignored any longer. If we don´t answer this question now, there will be no EU in the long run, at least not a meaningful EU. There will only be a big exterritorial building in Brussels governing itself - just like the UN building in New York.
If only 10 would vote for it that would be fine. I´m pretty sure Germany would be among them, also Luxemburg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, probably France, Spain and Italy, too.
but most initiatives milder than this have been rejected in various countries.
No, not really. When there´s a national referendum, the debate is always larded up with domestic affairs, never with the issues the referendum is really all about.
That´s why I would ask a shockingly clear question in a referendum. "Do you agree with where the EU is ultimately heading to or should we quit now?"
I think that's what even the most pro Union politicians are afraid of, that such a referendum would be widely rejected, thus putting back the cause of the EU decades.
It would put the cause decades forward - in those countries voting for it.
The traditional slow burn approach of gradually introducing more and more unification has worked so far.
It has worked so far. We´re at the point where we must decide where we want to go. The bus has just too many brake pedals now.
To throw it away in search of a USE on a matter of principle would be foolish I think.
But the EU will be the USE. Everybody knows it, but is seems to be taboo to mention it.
closet gay speeding drunk driver.
You can imagine I have read many obituaries about Jörg Haider, but not one which sums it up so accurately in only five words! Spot on! :D
15 years
It always seems to me puzzling that, while countries are clamouring (or carefully treading) to become part of one big country, at the same time countries like Scotland and Wales are trying to get more independent!
15 years
Hehehe... It seems there are satellites even in the outback... such well informed, aye?
Yes, TCE was the first trial run for the constitution which failed in 2004. The Lisbon treaty is aka Reform treaty is the modified version of TCE. So I guess there would be another reform treaty of the Reform Treaty, expected around 2012? One for sure, to be continued...
well, i Do have degress in Economics and International Relations. FINALLY coming in useful! :D
I'm often wrong, so correct me if I am, but I don't think the French voted in a referendum to abolish the Euro? I thought in most countries this decision was taken at a political level rather than a plebiscite? Except in Sweden and Denmark who rejected it. I think most citizens seem to want the financial benefits of associating with Germany France, the UK and other larger countries, but are petrified of losing their "identity"
true, i think everywhere that held a referendum on the matter rejected it - same with the constitution. its funny how we dont mind handing power to nameless faceless politicians and bureaucrats... so long as theyre OUR bureaucrats!
But the EU will be the USE. Everybody knows it, but is seems to be taboo to mention it.
will it? now, europe has come a LONG way in the past couple of generations. its impressive; thousands of years of warfare and in the space of less than 70 years we're talking a single state! thats impressive. but its also the EUs biggest problem - its all happening too fast. theres too big a link between Brussels and your average citizen, primarily because EU expansion has been led from the top down, rather than the roots up. this can be effective in some cases but for your average european, what benefit is there in sending more power to brussels when its hard enough to get your local pollies to listen?
the single biggest obstacle to a genuine USE is the military. the sovereign rights of states is ultimately guarded by their monopoly on the use of violence. its one thing for france and germany to use the same money, travel freely between borders etc, but at the end of teh day both states reserve the right to 'opt out' because they maintain their own military. if push comes to shove (not saying it will but every state has to assume its on the cards) any state in the EU can escape, with force if need be. if the EU military actually eventuates, thats it. its done. theres no going back unless you want to see the balkanisation of europe... which history teaches us, would be messy.
15 years
It always seems to me puzzling that, while countries are clamouring (or carefully treading) to become part of one big country, at the same time countries like Scotland and Wales are trying to get more independent!
I think a lot of the pro independence movement movement in Scotland sees closer integration with Europe as a good thing. Maybe that's the way of the future - smaller ethnic groups forming their own states under the umbrella of a larger union. It's happened in central europe and the balkans, so maybe it'll happen in the UK, Spain and France. Or maybe not?
15 years
will it? now, europe has come a LONG way in the past couple of generations. its impressive; thousands of years of warfare and in the space of less than 70 years we're talking a single state! thats impressive.
Well, let's just take a look of those thousands of years. In the very beginning, the Roman Empire (509BC-476AD) was the first unified state until it fell apart by both economic and military reasons but stood up for nearly a thousand years. Just after that, Frank tribes started expanding (from 306 until the end of Frankonia at Treaty of Verdun (843)... until king Louis the Pious who divided his kingdom between his three sons: Lothar, the later first Holy Roman emperor, Charles of Aquitania(France) and Louis the German.
So French and German are actually brother nations. So as French and English...
Back to history, it continued in the Holy Roman Empire (962-1806) which was defeated by Napoleon's French Empire (1789-1814), then along further fights for power, finally succeeded by the German Empire (1871-1918). Then we can talk about the Third Reich (1933-1945), and finally the beginning of EU in 1951.
Overall, between 2500 years of written history, there was about 2-300 years where most of Europe wasn't unified under the same or related countries.
Another interesting thing about most wars in Europe started between family relations. The toughest was probably WWI, when Wilhelm I of German Empire, George V of England, Nicholas II of Russia were actually cousins. It's like watching Neighbors but these neighbors plays with lives.
the single biggest obstacle to a genuine USE is the military. the sovereign rights of states is ultimately guarded by their monopoly on the use of violence. its one thing for france and germany to use the same money, travel freely between borders etc, but at the end of teh day both states reserve the right to 'opt out' because they maintain their own military.
Right. We can talk about USE as soon as monetary, military and foreign policy is ruled under the same, centralized government. So here we are, two more to go. :cool:
15 years
Overall, between 2500 years of written history, there was about 2-300 years where most of Europe wasn't unified under the same or related countries.
true - but id question how much say in the matter your average joe had. empires are run by emporers, usually for their own benefit. the democratic nation state is very different creature - thankfully. the french and zee germans may well be 'brother' countries but id be very interested to see how many germans and how many french consider themselves to be all the same people, rather than french of german.
all of this said, the nation state is a very NEW creature too (historically speaking), not even 300 years old really. im not assuming its the be-all and end-all of political structures, we can see it changing right now! but its certainly ingrained into our collective psyche, so i doubt we'll see it disapear too quickly.
15 years
the french and zee germans may well be 'brother' countries but id be very interested to see how many germans and how many french consider themselves to be all the same people, rather than french of german.
Many people in the (now French) Alsace still speak German. In Germany, the western regions have strong ties with France, many people commute across the border.
The Bavarians and French were allies in many wars, against Prussia and Austria (who again loathed each other).
I have read that in WW1, there was a lot of fraternization between French soldiers and Bavarian army troopers (Bavria still had own regiments), much to the disgust of the Prussian generals.
I had 6 years French in school, it´s pretty obligatory (you can chose between French and Latin, but who wants to learn a dead language).
Many towns have a "partner town" in the other country, with common festivals, schools visiting each other and the funniest thing are German towns giving some of their squares a french name nobody can pronounce. :D
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